Antichrist Superstar

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

I really wonder why it's considered his all-time best by so many fans. It's good, yeah, but as much as I tried, no matter how many times I listened to it, I can't see how so many people consider it to be his best. How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring. There are a few others that suck too but I just can't think of them right now. Anyway, I'm not bashing the album, b/c I do think its good, but I just think "Mechanical Animals" and "Holy Wood" are way better; it's by far his most overrated album.

[CarpathianRose]

"The Minute of Decay" is actually my fav song from that album. Its my second fav MM album next to Mechanical Animals.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Well I agree that "Mechanical Animals" is a really good album. But I still don't and will probably never understand why some horrible songs on "Antichrist Superstar" are so popular.

[mandyko13]

you are completely right
i wanted to say this so many times here, but i knew that they were gonna kill me
holy wood is the best

[ihtia0]

The musical element as well as the thought put into the lyrics are all topnotch. Antichrist Superstar is a flawless album.

I've yet to encounter the "horrible songs" you speak of. Putting the CD the right side up into the player may assist in getting rid of them, wherever they are.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by mandyko13
you are completely right
i wanted to say this so many times here, but i knew that they were gonna kill me
holy wood is the best

THANK YOU! So I see I'm not the only one who realizes how overrated it is. Yeah, I too figured people would get pissed at me for saying it, but it's true. I don't really have a set favorite, but Holy Wood is definitely one of them. I wouldn't say Holy Wood is absolutely perfect, out of 10 I'd probably give it like a 9.5, but there's nothing godawful on there either.

[tsimtsum]

kinderfeld is one of the best and most important songs on anitchrist superstar. it plays a big part in the "transformation". if you have any idea what the whole concept was for antichrist superstar. minute of decay is very good as well. maybe you just dont understand what manson is is saying in these songs. i wish they still played them. i dont know which i like better...antichrist superstar or mechanical animals. they are both very good albums. holywood is ok.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

All I'm saying is I think those two songs are extremely annoying. Holy Wood is OK? Yeah right, Holy Wood is fucking classic. Like I said on a previous post, I wouldn't quite call it PERFECT, but nothing on there is horrible either. I can listen to that entire album without skipping a song.

[CarpathianRose]

hmm.....i think there is a better variation on ACS (and also POAAF) than on his later albums and i think the songs are "stronger." This is just my opinion but i think HW had more songs that seem like they are intended to be singles (if you can understand what i mean?)....i don't really think songs like "the Fight Song/Disposable Teens/Nobodies/Death Song/Love Song/Target Audience" are as strong. Don't get me wrong because i like them.
But they are catchier and would proabably appeal to newer fans maybe, i do think HW is maybe easier to get into than ACS.

[pyrox02]

Holy Wood is the best, I say, but by no measure is Antichrist Superstar bad. Overrated? Maybe a little. But not bad.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by pyrox02
Holy Wood is the best, I say, but by no measure is Antichrist Superstar bad. Overrated? Maybe a little. But not bad.

Oh no I'm definitely not calling Antichrist Superstar bad, definitely not, it's got some of his best songs, but to me Holy Wood is just an overall better listen. I can listen to that entire album without skipping one song, where with "Antichrist Superstar" there are some songs I just have to skip. That's all I was saying, that it's overrated, not bad.

[pyrox02]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Oh no I'm definitely not calling Antichrist Superstar bad, definitely not, it's got some of his best songs, but to me Holy Wood is just an overall better listen. I can listen to that entire album without skipping one song, where with "Antichrist Superstar" there are some songs I just have to skip. That's all I was saying, that it's overrated, not bad.

I still don't understand how you could skip Minute of Decay. Tourniquet - Maybe. That song bores the shit out of me. I prefer the Prosthetic Dance Mix.

[CarpathianRose]

Yeah, i guess it comes down to a matter of opinions.....i usually don't really listen to HW as much as ACS. Although i do really like "A place in the dirt"......."GodEatGod"......and "Count to Six and Die"......

[HaTeRaPeR]

Well GODEATGOD is boring....but Holy Wood is my favourite album.

But...Antichrist Superstar has something to it that makes it so special, so strong, so complete...I dunno how to explain it but Antichrist Superstar feels like just one song, not an album.

It's not my favourite but it's got something it. Definitely.

Oh and those songs you mentioned are AMAZING! Kinderfeld is just genius and Minute of Decay sounds so real, so authentic. Definitely a beautiful song.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by pyrox02
I still don't understand how you could skip Minute of Decay. Tourniquet - Maybe. That song bores the shit out of me. I prefer the Prosthetic Dance Mix.

I dunno, I just can't get into it, thats a song that bores me to death. Sure "Tourniquet" isn't the greatest, and definitely shouldn't be on "Lest We Forget", but that I at least find to be pretty good.

[CarpathianRose]

I just like the overall sound of ACS. i usually listen to it from beginning to end so it does seem like one song i suppose....

[CarpathianRose]

I dunno, I just can't get into it, thats a song that bores me to death. Sure "Tourniquet" isn't the greatest, and definitely shouldn't be on "Lest We Forget", but that I at least find to be pretty good.

I like Tourniquet and i think 2/3 of the songs on LWF shouldn't have been on there!

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by CarpathianRose
I like Tourniquet and i think 2/3 of the songs on LWF shouldn't have been on there!

I think "Lest We Forget" was really well put together, though "Great Big White World" should be on there, it's an all-time classic. What songs do you think shouldn't be on there??

[CarpathianRose]

I would also have liked to have seen Great Big White World...also The Speed of Pain....Coma White....Fundamentally Loathsome.....
rather than songs like Tainted Love, This is the New Shit, The Nobodies, mOBSCENE...........i think there are way better songs than just the ones he did videos for (which was what is pretty much was) and honestly the songs on LWF aren't even the most popular ones! Just look at the MA poll for best song on that album....

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by CarpathianRose
I would also have liked to have seen Great Big White World...also The Speed of Pain....Coma White....Fundamentally Loathsome.....
rather than songs like Tainted Love, This is the New Shit, The Nobodies, mOBSCENE...........i think there are way better songs than just the ones he did videos for (which was what is pretty much was) and honestly the songs on LWF aren't even the most popular ones! Just look at the MA poll for best song on that album....

Yeah "Coma White" definitely should have been on there, classic song. I still don't understand why "Great Big White World" isn't on there, especially since, like you said, it's really popular among his fans. It's seriously one of the most amazing songs I've ever heard.

[CarpathianRose]

I agree...Great Big White World is definitely one of my top 10, maybe even top 5 fav MM songs.....

[HaTeRaPeR]

It gets even better live doesn't it? I almost cried this last MM concert I went to when they played it.

[vht]

there seems to be two types of manson fans. The older fans who have been around since the early days always prefer the old stuff (portrait/acs), while all the newer and younger fans think HW is his best work.

I personally think Kindefeld and Minute of decay blow the shit out of anything from holywood. Half the songs on that album sound like they were written with the sole purpose of being played on the radio.

[Cyclops_Girl]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Yeah "Coma White" definitely should have been on there, classic song. I still don't understand why "Great Big White World" isn't on there, especially since, like you said, it's really popular among his fans. It's seriously one of the most amazing songs I've ever heard.

I think "Great Big White World" wasn't included in "Lest We Forget" because some idiots thought it was racist. *Rolls eyes* Songs can't even be racist for goodness sake! I agree though, both tracks should have been included.

I disagree though about ACS being a bad album. I thought it was well done.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Well I'm glad to see that you agree that it's a great song. It's my all-time favorite song by him. And yes, as awesome as it already is, it does sound even better live. As soon as I heard it live for the first time, I was just fuckin blown away. I couldn't believe how good it was. Amazing.

[CarpathianRose]

I personally think Kindefeld and Minute of decay blow the shit out of anything from holywood. Half the songs on that album sound like they were written with the sole purpose of being played on the radio.

Thats i what i meant in one of my earlier posts about most of the HW songs being material made for singles and stuff......i think anything from MA, ACS, POAAF and even HW is better than anything from GAOG

[ihtia0]

Originally posted by vht
I personally think Kindefeld and Minute of decay blow the shit out of anything from holywood. Half the songs on that album sound like they were written with the sole purpose of being played on the radio.

Amen to that!

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Cyclops_Girl
I think "Great Big White World" wasn't included in "Lest We Forget" because some idiots thought it was racist. *Rolls eyes* Songs can't even be racist for goodness sake! I agree though, both tracks should have been included.

Racist? What the fuck? Yeah, People will always find something to complain about ...

And about the "Antichrist Superstar" thing; like I said before, i am NOT in any way saying the album sucks, it is good and it has some of his best songs, but what I did say is that its OVERRATED. Not bad, overrated. Overrated does NOT necesarily mean bad, it can, but not in this case. I just think it gets too much praise when "Mechanical Animals" and "Holy Wood" are way better.

[CarpathianRose]

I thought ACS was his break-through album to excellence and MA was like him redifining this in a completely different way, i though HW was great but nothing special.....and GOAG, i was disappointed.....

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by vht
there seems to be two types of manson fans. The older fans who have been around since the early days always prefer the old stuff (portrait/acs), while all the newer and younger fans think HW is his best work.

I personally think Kindefeld and Minute of decay blow the shit out of anything from holywood. Half the songs on that album sound like they were written with the sole purpose of being played on the radio.

I like all his albums, old and new. There are none that I think are bad. I just think that "Antichrist Superstar" is overrated, it really is. And about all the songs on Holy Wood sounding like they were made for radio play: why do people think a song sucks if its played on the radio? That's one of the dumbest things I ever hear people say. And "Minute Of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" blow the shit out of ANYTHING from "Holy Wood?" Are you fucking serious? Even if you somehow think those songs are good, they don't even compare to songs like "The Fight Song", "Disposable Teens" or "The Death Song"...wait, let me guess, since "The Fight Song" was a radio friendly song it sucks? Yeah, alright dude...

[CarpathianRose]

Well i've been a fan of MM for many years now and in general, i find that older fans prefer his older stuff, and newer fans prefer his newer stuff. That usually is the case with any band. I honestly would rather listen to "The Minute of Decay."

[CarpathianRose]

Ironically, no......i just think the best of his stuff come from MA and ACS.....and in my opinion, thats basically what i would consider to be in a best of MM CD.....i personally don't care for "Best of" albums, the term "Greatest Hits" is maybe more applicable, though i don't really see a need for bands to make "best of" albums in the first place.......i fine having the basic albums, the only reason i actually bought LWF was for the bonus DVD and to check out the "Personal Jesus" song (which is an alright song)

[Shinya]

Yep, Antichrist is my fave. I'd say Kinderfeld has always been one of my least favorite tracks off AS, but it sounds awesome live. I love the part when Manson says "Tell me something beautiful" and Zim comes in on guitar. Sounds wayyyyy better than the studio version. I also like the pre-Antichrist Superstar version that was played live on the Smells Like Children tour. It sounds really different than what ended up on the album. Between all three versions, I like it live from the DTTW tour best.

[koolboee cdmo87]

I do think it's overrated by the fans -- underrated on the whole though. It's a masterpiece.

It IS NOT his best though. Mechanical Animals surpassed it.

Holy Wood had the POTENTIAL to be even better... but the songs are just not fleshed-out, the execution just wasn't good at all. Antichrist Superstar isn't on the grand scale that HW is supposed to be, but it was executed extremely well.

BTW, I think "Minute of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" are amazing songs. I even like "Deformography" by now.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

You know another thing I hate? When people say they hate songs just because they get a lot of radio play. Just like getting played on the radio doesn't necesarily make a song good, it doesn't necesarily make it BAD either. I mean, don't you people like Manson? If so, why the hell would you have a problem with hearing his songs on the radio? Hell, with all the annoying bullshit thats always on the radio today(RAP), I'd love to hear Manson on the radio a lot instead of all that crap.

[tsimtsum]

i think it's funny that you say holy wood is a classic. it's not like that album is 10 years old or something. it came out in 2000. Portrait of an American Family could be considered a classic. im not say holywood sucks or anything, i love that cd. it's just nothing compaired to poaaf,acss, and ma. those are classics.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by tsimtsum
i think it's funny that you say holy wood is a classic. it's not like that album is 10 years old or something. it came out in 2000. Portrait of an American Family could be considered a classic. im not say holywood sucks or anything, i love that cd. it's just nothing compaired to poaaf,acss, and ma. those are classics.

OK fine, maybe not "classic" since its only 5 years old, but it's definitely an awesome album.

[SIL7ER]

Ive said it before holy wood owns ACSS. That said MA is my favorite album from MM.

[tsimtsum]

another thing, just because antichrist superstar is "over rated" does not mean that its a bad cd. there was so much thought put into that cd. alot of work as well. i love all of manson's cd, but golden age. that album was very weak(mainly the lyrics) the lyrics werent as meaningful as his others. i hope he gets over that whole golden age crap. the cd still was good, just not manson good.

[tsimtsum]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
OK fine, maybe not "classic" since its only 5 years old, but it's definitely an awesome album.


it is an awsome album. very well thought out. i wish he would release the book that goes with it.

[AnjoKabalistico]

My issue with HW is that it was a step backward in what they were doing. They went back to their ACSS sound with it, instead of continuing searching for new sounds, continuing reinveting the band (which was what they had done from POAAF to ACSS, and from ACSS to MA). I remember at the time Manson said that HW would be back to the heavy, raw sound or in Manson's words "what a MM fan really wants" (probably because of the minority of ACSS fan-boys who thought Mechanical Animals was not Marilyn Manson). That hurt MM credibility with me.

The other problem is that the songs are way too simplistic, and not in a good way, like NIN's With Teeth. Most songs on HW have 2 or 3 riffs, always powerchords, and that's it. And half of the songs sound more or less the same and have the same structure.

Although now I like HW a lot more than when it came out. I like to hear the guitar textures, which are really well done.

As with ACSS, yeah it is a bit overrated among MM fans. But to me it's an amazing album, his second best. Mechanical Animals is better, but ACSS is close.

And I like all songs on ACSS.

[vht]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
And about all the songs on Holy Wood sounding like they were made for radio play: why do people think a song sucks if its played on the radio? That's one of the dumbest things I ever hear people say. And "Minute Of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" blow the shit out of ANYTHING from "Holy Wood?" Are you fucking serious? Even if you somehow think those songs are good, they don't even compare to songs like "The Fight Song", "Disposable Teens" or "The Death Song"...wait, let me guess, since "The Fight Song" was a radio friendly song it sucks? Yeah, alright dude...

I just dont like when artists intentionaly go out of their way to make their art accessible by the masses. Art and commerice dont go together IMO. When you try to blend the two, you end up with an inferior product. Thats why radio friedly stuff gets a bad rap. If you want proof, then watch MTV. I have a interview from back in the ACS days where manson says "we've always done what we do and the mainstream has finally decided to accept that." HW is definitely NOT "doing what they do, etc." It's extremely obvious by the lyrics and music to half of those songs, that they were obviously written to be accessible.

If I wanted radio friendly, I'd listen to Good Charlette. In fact the fight song sounds like something GC would probably write. But when I listen to Manson I expect a true piece of art, not some gay 3 minute radio pop songs about being a 14 year old goth loser who think "no one understand them." Thats just lame.

Thats why I prefer the old shit. Kinderfeld and MoD are TRUE Manson songs to me. No teeny bopper bullshit. Just real songs with real emotion. It doesnt really suprise me that the newer fans have trouble latching onto these songs because they really aren't very accessible. But when it comes to manson and most great artists, I find that the least accessible stuff is usually their best work.

[FIGHTMF]

I agree that AS is underrated and that Holywood had the potential to be the best. I don't agree that Mechanical Animals is better then AS though it comes extremly close but not quite better, just my personal opinion. Both are COMPLETELY different albums and its hard to compare them really. I love them both.

I don't think a lot of people understood the concept of the Greatest Hits album which Manson released. It wasn't about most popular songs amoung fans. It was about introducing new fans, having a nice mix of songs amoungst the eras and also having the almost entire video collection on DVD including (s)AINT (which wasn't allowed on the US version but everywhere else was ok). You can complain about the song choice, I thought it was great. Coma White should of been on all versions is my only complaint.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by tsimtsum
another thing, just because antichrist superstar is "over rated" does not mean that its a bad cd.

Dude, I've said it like 5 times now ... I did NOT say Antichrist Superstar is a bad album. Overrated does NOT mean bad. "Antichrist Superstar" is good but it just gets a little bit too much praise if you ask me, making it OVERRATED, but not bad!

So for the record: I did NOT SAY ANTICHRIST SUPERSTAR SUCKS.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
I really wonder why it's considered his all-time best by so many fans. It's good, yeah, but as much as I tried, no matter how many times I listened to it, I can't see how so many people consider it to be his best. How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring. There are a few others that suck too but I just can't think of them right now. Anyway, I'm not bashing the album, b/c I do think its good, but I just think "Mechanical Animals" and "Holy Wood" are way better; it's by far his most overrated album.


DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

I was expecting someone to come on and reply with something like that ... well whatever, I still think its kinda overrated, I'm not gonna change my mind.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
I was expecting some to come on and reply with something like that ... well whatever, I still think its kinda overrated, I'm not gonna change my mind.

better to be overrated than overplayed

[AnjoKabalistico]

Originally posted by vht
I just dont like when artists intentionaly go out of their way to make their art accessible by the masses. Art and commerice dont go together IMO. When you try to blend the two, you end up with an inferior product. Thats why radio friedly stuff gets a bad rap. If you want proof, then watch MTV. I have a interview from back in the ACS days where manson says "we've always done what we do and the mainstream has finally decided to accept that." HW is definitely NOT "doing what they do, etc." It's extremely obvious by the lyrics and music to half of those songs, that they were obviously written to be accessible.

If I wanted radio friendly, I'd listen to Good Charlette. In fact the fight song sounds like something GC would probably write. But when I listen to Manson I expect a true piece of art, not some gay 3 minute radio pop songs about being a 14 year old goth loser who think "no one understand them." Thats just lame.

Thats why I prefer the old shit. Kinderfeld and MoD are TRUE Manson songs to me. No teeny bopper bullshit. Just real songs with real emotion. It doesnt really suprise me that the newer fans have trouble latching onto these songs because they really aren't very accessible. But when it comes to manson and most great artists, I find that the least accessible stuff is usually their best work.

I agree most of what you said. I find that the concept and the thematic that Manson explores on HW are amazing, it's his richest album in this regard. But musically it's lacking (and the same goes to GAOG).

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
better to be overrated than overplayed

And what exactly are you saying is overplayed?

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by AnjoKabalistico
I agree most of what you said. I find that the concept and the thematic that Manson explores on HW are amazing, it's his richest album in this regard. But musically it's lacking (and the same goes to GAOG).

do you play an instrument?

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
And what exactly are you saying is overplayed?

fightsong, disposable, nobodies. those songs were all overplayed IMO

[AnjoKabalistico]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
do you play an instrument?

Yes, I play bass.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by AnjoKabalistico
Yes, I play bass.

ahh..me as well..in that case your right the bass on holywood and GAOG are kind of lacking but the guitars on holywood are amazing

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
the bass on holywood and GAOG are kind of lacking but the guitars on holywood are amazing

So judging by what you just said, I'm guessing you think Holy Wood songs were overplayed, but still good?

[Ramirez 425]

i never said that holywood wasnt good.. it is indeed a great album and has one of my favorite manson songs on it (valentines day) but ACSS blows it away. MOD is like my favorite song to play and one of my favorites to listen to and Kinderfeld is AMAZING. both cd's are good, but, ACSS just seems to have better, more thought out songs.

[AnjoKabalistico]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
ahh..me as well..in that case your right the bass on holywood and GAOG are kind of lacking but the guitars on holywood are amazing

The texture they gave to the guitars on Holy Wood sound amazing, but, for the most part, it's too simplistic and not interesting at all. I mean, how many times do they have to make a song which the guitar on the chorus goes EEEEEEEE-DDDDDDDD-GGGGGGGG-EEEEEEEE, or something similar?

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
So judging by what you just said, I'm guessing you think Holy Wood songs were overplayed, but still good?

I think one of the problems that Holy Wood didn't sell very well was the poor choice of singles. Disposable Teens and The Fight Song are perfect songs for radio/mtv, yes, but they're very very poor songs, The Fight Song especially. And they sound awful live. I believe Target Audience and Burning Flag would have been much better choices, but oh well...

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
i never said that holywood wasnt good.. it is indeed a great album and has one of my favorite manson songs on it (valentines day) but ACSS blows it away. MOD is like my favorite song to play and one of my favorites to listen to and Kinderfeld is AMAZING. both cd's are good, but, ACSS just seems to have better, more thought out songs.

Alright, I guess I just got the impression that Holy Wood wasn't one of your favorites, since you said the songs were all overplayed and shit. Just wanted to see if you actually liked it or not.

[Ramirez 425]

i cant think of a manson song that i dont like...except maybe long hard road out of hell..

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by AnjoKabalistico
I think one of the problems that Holy Wood didn't sell very well was the poor choice of singles. Disposable Teens and The Fight Song are perfect songs for radio/mtv, yes, but they're very very poor songs, The Fight Song especially. And they sound awful live. I believe Target Audience and Burning Flag would have been much better choices, but oh well...

Yeah, "Target Audience" and "Burning Flag" are very good songs too, just like most of the songs on "Holy Wood", I guess maybe they could have been singles. But to what you said about "The Fight Song" and "Disposable Teens" sounding awful live...OK, I will give you "The Fight Song", that's not one of his better live songs, but Disposable Teens?? Dude have you ever seen that on the "Guns, God, and Government" DVD, it's friggin amazing, way better than the studio version even. Probably one of his best live songs.

[Ramirez 425]

thats because they show you it on the dvd after it has been mixed

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
thats because they show you it on the dvd after it has been mixed

Probably true, but have you ever seen it live anywhere else? And if so do you agree with him that it sucks live?

[AnjoKabalistico]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Yeah, "Target Audience" and "Burning Flag" are very good songs too, just like most of the songs on "Holy Wood", I guess maybe they could have been singles. But to what you said about "The Fight Song" and "Disposable Teens" sounding awful live...OK, I will give you "The Fight Song", that's not one of his better live songs, but Disposable Teens?? Dude have you ever seen that on the "Guns, God, and Government" DVD, it's friggin amazing, way better than the studio version even. Probably one of his best live songs.

Well, it's a matter of taste. Personally I find it weak live. But it did look cool on the Grotesk Burlesk Tour, with the girls pretending to play percussion.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Probably true, but have you ever seen it live anywhere else? And if so do you agree with him that it sucks live?

saw it live at the grotesk burlesk and against all gods shows in boston. Both sounded very good at the time..but if you look at shows like the Rock AM ring 2003, or 2005 you'll see. It always sounds amazing when your there cuz ur so pumped up to see manson. at least thats what it seems like to me.

[koolboee cdmo87]

Originally posted by vht
I just dont like when artists intentionaly go out of their way to make their art accessible by the masses. Art and commerice dont go together IMO. When you try to blend the two, you end up with an inferior product. Thats why radio friedly stuff gets a bad rap. If you want proof, then watch MTV. I have a interview from back in the ACS days where manson says "we've always done what we do and the mainstream has finally decided to accept that." HW is definitely NOT "doing what they do, etc." It's extremely obvious by the lyrics and music to half of those songs, that they were obviously written to be accessible.

If I wanted radio friendly, I'd listen to Good Charlette. In fact the fight song sounds like something GC would probably write. But when I listen to Manson I expect a true piece of art, not some gay 3 minute radio pop songs about being a 14 year old goth loser who think "no one understand them." Thats just lame.

Thats why I prefer the old shit. Kinderfeld and MoD are TRUE Manson songs to me. No teeny bopper bullshit. Just real songs with real emotion. It doesnt really suprise me that the newer fans have trouble latching onto these songs because they really aren't very accessible. But when it comes to manson and most great artists, I find that the least accessible stuff is usually their best work.
EXACTLY. MM started out by defying everything. Eventually, he became popular with it. He stuck with it for ACSS, and he even defied the ACSS fanboys with MA. Ever since HW, he's always catering to them.

I don't start disliking a song for being played on the radio - that's why I still love "Sweet Dreams", "The Beautiful People", "The Dope Show", "I Don't Like the Drugs...", etc. What I do hate is when songs are being made FOR radio. And IMO, most of HW is. It doesn't have any fantastic lead guitar work like its predecessors, Pogo is barely heard, etc.

As for "Disposable Teens" and "The Fight Song" being played live - they're badly in need of being retired! "Disposable Teens" was a highlight of the GB Tour, and it really got the crowd going. Now it just sounds pathetic again, esp. when played after a song as fleshed-out as "Irresponable Hate Anthem." "The Fight Song" was never that great, but entertaining for the GB. "The Love Song" and "The Nobodies" actually sounded great during AAG, but I think they should also be retired before they get old.
I wish that if MM still feels compelled to perform some HW material, he should play the shit that gets ignored and is actually decent -- "Target Audience", "Lamb of God", etc.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by koolboee cdmo87
EXACTLY. MM started out by defying everything. Eventually, he became popular with it. He stuck with it for ACSS, and he even defied the ACSS fanboys with MA. Ever since HW, he's always catering to them.

I don't start disliking a song for being played on the radio - that's why I still love "Sweet Dreams", "The Beautiful People", "The Dope Show", "I Don't Like the Drugs...", etc. What I do hate is when songs are being made FOR radio. And IMO, most of HW is. It doesn't have any fantastic lead guitar work like its predecessors, Pogo is barely heard, etc.

As for "Disposable Teens" and "The Fight Song" being played live - they're badly in need of being retired! "Disposable Teens" was a highlight of the GB Tour, and it really got the crowd going. Now it just sounds pathetic again, esp. when played after a song as fleshed-out as "Irresponable Hate Anthem." "The Fight Song" was never that great, but entertaining for the GB. "The Love Song" and "The Nobodies" actually sounded great during AAG, but I think they should also be retired before they get old.
I wish that if MM still feels compelled to perform some HW material, he should play the shit that gets ignored and is actually decent -- "Target Audience", "Lamb of God", etc.


manson isnt catering to anybody but himself. if he wants to make a cd of all radio hits then he's going to..and im not saying that holywood was made for radio because i disagree with that. Im just saying that you are in no position to say which songs are to be retired and such. Why would he drop disposable and fight song from his setlist when they were both big singles? the majority of the crowd who hasnt seen manson would be pissed and let down. so i think your gonna have to suck it up.

[Damian]

I think Antichrist, MA and Holywood were all on the same page, Holywood being a tiny bit weaker. But with the story of the trilogy, it makes since that he has Holywood, the weakest of the three, at the beginning. It gives the story the proper time to evolve into the epic that was Antichrist Superstar. People are listening to these albums just on "song value" when it fact, they are part of the bigger peice. You need to listen to Antichrist as you would read a book, let the characters live inside your head. Sure, there are some songs on there that I think are kinda week (Wormboy, Deformography), but this doesn't make ACSS any less of an album.

Personally, I think ACSS is the most orginal of his releases. The song writing processed seemed to be shared equally through the band, where as on HW, it was just John and Twigz. MA really broke down what idea we had of Manson, but I think he set himself up for failure by enforcing the basic song formula. You see, ever since John came into the band, the riffs he wrote were inventive for the band, just kinda rehashes of previous style laid down by other members. This is probley why Holywood is the most dull of the trilogy.

[Omega_3x5]

You've gotta feel it man... Don't matters the quality of the sound, or if it's better or worse. For the old school people... Mr. Manson IS the Antichrist Superstar...

The lyrics of AC are charged with a lot of feelings and HW doesn't. At least for me. Anyhow, HW is a great album, but if i'm really a fan of MM it's because of AC. Also, I don't care if John5 it's 10 times better than Zim Zum, they are just different guitar players, each one with his own style. Maybe technically, HW may be better... But each one have got it's own taste, and in my case, nothing can beat AC.

And thanks Berkowitz for Tourniquet ;D

[Heretic]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring.


I REALLY feel like killing you right now. It may take someone weeks to years and maybe forever to get the deal of the trilogy that ACSS started. But to say Kinderfeld and especially Minute of Decay (!!) are terrible has no excuse. Please do some research and listen more carefully next time. Minute of Decay is possibly one of the few songs that can reach the emotions of hearing "Hurt" by NIN. I adore Manson for masterpieces like that but you probably adore him for mOBSCENE and New Shit.... Damn, I wish it was 1996.

I also wish that analysis site called "Songs of Golgotha" was still up.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by Heretic
I REALLY feel like killing you right now. It may take someone weeks to years and maybe forever to get the deal of the trilogy that ACSS started. But to say Kinderfeld and especially Minute of Decay (!!) are terrible has no excuse. Please do some research and listen more carefully next time. Minute of Decay is possibly one of the few songs that can reach the emotions of hearing "Hurt" by NIN. I adore Manson for masterpieces like that but you probably adore him for mOBSCENE and New Shit.... Damn, I wish it was 1996.

I also wish that analysis site called "Songs of Golgotha" was still up.


i agree 100%

[koolboee cdmo87]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
manson isnt catering to anybody but himself. if he wants to make a cd of all radio hits then he's going to..and im not saying that holywood was made for radio because i disagree with that.
He definitely did cater to people. He even admitted that he was trying to make HW something that would please ACSS "fans" (aka the ACSS fanboys, the only ones who really opposed MA). The songs are all much shorter, and most of them have 2-3 riffs that are looped over and over. Pretty much everything is simple power chords, with the exception of that "solo" in "President Dead." He was clearly trying to win back the nihilistic teenage Mansonites from the ACSS era, and it seems like he's still trying too.

Im just saying that you are in no position to say which songs are to be retired and such. Why would he drop disposable and fight song from his setlist when they were both big singles? the majority of the crowd who hasnt seen manson would be pissed and let down. so i think your gonna have to suck it up.
They WEREN'T big singles. HW didn't have a big single. "Disposable Teens" was debuted, people said it was going backwards and a cheap "Beautiful People" rip-off. They threw it and HW into the dustbin and it was forgotten. The other two songs failed to make a dent. To this day, HW is still his lowest seller. It's nothing like if he would drop "The Dope Show" or "Sweet Dreams."

"Tainted Love" was a big hit, his first since the MA days. "Personal Jesus" was also a big hit. He needs to start making big hits out of his OWN songs again, though!

[Damian]

Not only is Golden Age Manson´s best record to date, it´s also his most accessible. Sure, tracks like “Slut Garden,” “(S)Ain´t,” and “ParaNoir” positively drop with the pungent aroma of sex and decadence so familiar to Manson fans, but they´re also front-loaded with the sort of visceral, impossible-to-miss hooks that should make everyone from your grandma to your mullet-headed cousin want to punch the air in pure rock ecstasy.

And he's not catering to a crowd?
*cough* BULLSHIT *un-cough*

[Damian]

Originally posted by BarryC
Bull-Fucking SHIT! The Fight Song was a HUGE single. Look for how many singles it was put on and made out of itself. Disposable Teens was also a huge hit. You, my sir, are retarded.

By big hit, you need LOTS of radio and video play. Which neither of those got. The biggest single of Holywood was The Nobodies which got moderate video play (hardly any radio play). Just because a record company puts out multiple version doesn't equal big hit. With the exception of Sweet Dreams, all singles have had multiple releases, REGARDLESS of how sucsessful they were.

You, kind sir, don't know shit.

[Damian]

Originally posted by BarryC
The Nobodies was definetly a huge hit too and you're still retarded. If A song gets its own video then; It's a huge fucking hit. The reason they released so many singles of these 3 songs on HW is because they were much more popular than the others on HW; AKA HUGE HITS.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wow. You're serious.
Take a look at this, yo:

Three singles off Holywood
Three singles off Mechanical Animals
and GASP
Three singles off Antichrist Superstar.

Manson has been doing the same number of singles pretty since the beginning. Holywood is NOTHING SPECIAL! If you think because something gets a video, that it's a hit. Then you need to go shoot yourself in the fucking head. Turn on MTV and tell me how many of those are "actual" hits.

Do Your Homework Shit-For-Brains (http://www.mansonusa.com/discography/?by=sl&view=tds)

[ozebane]

Originally posted by BarryC
The Nobodies was definetly a huge hit too and you're still retarded. If A song gets its own video then; It's a huge fucking hit. The reason they released so many singles of these 3 songs on HW is because they were much more popular than the others on HW; AKA HUGE HITS.

Thats bullshit.
For instance, Mortiis has a video for Decadent and desperate, a song that didn't even pierce the top 40.
Burzum has a video, and he hasn't even released a single.
HW was not particularly popular, it's songs didn't get as much airtime, the world was generally bored with manson.
Anyway, how can you measure whether a song is a hit or not, commercially, without releasing it as a single?
You can't call a song a 'huge hit' until it has been released independantly of the album.

[mandyko13]

Originally posted by charlemagned

ACSS is his only album that cannot be defined as a rock album. MA - glam rock. HW - goth rock. PoaAF - metal. GAoG - hard rock. ACSS- ???

Hell, 1/3 of the songs don't even have guitar in them. Look at the liner notes. It's Pogo and Trent using synths at their most creative. The lack of a steady guitarist (there are five credited in the album) forces Manson to branch out and embrace industrial elements for the better. That's why a third of the "guitar" sounds more like a vacuum cleaner in reverse than anything else.
Plus, the production is so... Honest. HW, MA, GAoG, all have streamlined production, which can be a good thing, but the dirty feel of ACSS adds sooooo much. Come on! How else could Deformography and Kinderfeld work? And there's still a leftover of the amateur feel from PoaAF, a creepy "I'm going to get under your skin" feel. Perhpas it's New Orleans adding its touch, but the whole album feels like Alien, times ten. And the songwriting! Fucking BRILLIANT! As a Catholic, I am very farmiliar with the religious writings he cites constantly. As a devotee of Neitzsche, the rest is obvious. (Yes, a Catholic Neitzsche and Manson fan!) And let me tell you, it's a perfect perversion of the messiah story, with a bit of Ziggy Stardust thrown in. The lyrcis read like Japanese poetry, with hinge phrases that mean many different things at once.
Just because the music is subtle doesn't speak inproficiency, either! The synth elements and guitar are deceptively rolled back, like a sick corrosion of Ministry. Manson certainly did his late 80's industrial rock homework. The only truly organic thing on the album is Twiggy's bass, and yet is still manages to feel so unclean. Trent Reznor was the greatest producer Manson ever had. Not olny is the work clever and self-depreciating, the variation in guitar players when present lends such variation! From Tourniquet to Little horn, what a fucking shift! Sooo many layers...
And the drums, don't get me started! Drum machines with brilliant touches of the real. I also adore the blending of the line between live and studio, and the dates associated with the "live" performances. I love the art. You thin GAoG has a lot of Wiemar era Germany in it? Look at the music. The Beautiful People is swing, like Doll-Daga-Buzz-Buzz. The image of the genital repsiration was from 1920's Germany. And the makeup on manson's face, it's like the Borg, but organic and sickening! And there's not just moping/anger. There's joy, fear, love, nostalgia and wisdom expressed, sometimes in the same song (Kinderfeld, my 2nd favorite MM song). And the closing, with the rise on the 3rd day! Fucking genious!


good comment... so you consider holy wood goth rock? it's my faovurite album...

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
THANK YOU! So I see I'm not the only one who realizes how overrated it is. Yeah, I too figured people would get pissed at me for saying it, but it's true. I don't really have a set favorite, but Holy Wood is definitely one of them. I wouldn't say Holy Wood is absolutely perfect, out of 10 I'd probably give it like a 9.5, but there's nothing godawful on there either.

holy wood is PERFECT

Originally posted by CarpathianRose
I like Tourniquet and i think 2/3 of the songs on LWF shouldn't have been on there!

lest we forget.. the best of marilyn manson... that title is perfect for that album. lest we forget is the best, truly the best of Manson. there is no song i skip there... m maybe tourniquet. i can't stand that

[mandyko13]

Originally posted by Cyclops_Girl
I think "Great Big White World" wasn't included in "Lest We Forget" because some idiots thought it was racist. *Rolls eyes* Songs can't even be racist for goodness sake! I agree though, both tracks should have been included.

I disagree though about ACS being a bad album. I thought it was well done.

I don't like Great big white world, not at all. Fundamentally loathsome it's very good, I love it, but the end ruins it all. I like Mechanical animals (the song)

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
You know another thing I hate? When people say they hate songs just because they get a lot of radio play. Just like getting played on the radio doesn't necesarily make a song good,

that is obvious

[koolboee cdmo87]

Originally posted by BarryC
Bull-Fucking SHIT! The Fight Song was a HUGE single. Look for how many singles it was put on and made out of itself. Disposable Teens was also a huge hit. You, my sir, are retarded.
Wow.

I'd say more, but Damian and Ozebane summed up my thoughts perfectly!

[Damian]

Originally posted by mandyko13
I don't like Great big white world, not at all. Fundamentally loathsome it's very good, I love it, but the end ruins it all. I like Mechanical animals (the song)

I don't like you one bit. The best part of Fundamentally Loathsome WAS the outro! And Great Big White World is probley the best song on MA. But at least you like the title track...

[AnjoKabalistico]

Great post charlemagned. I agree that the production value of ACSS is amazing, in the sense that it made the songs so raw, noisy and chaotic. All the albums after ACSS sound too clean, which fits Mechanical Animals but HW and GAOG needed to have more "chaos" in them, GAOG especially.

I see that you like wumpscut. Good taste you have ;)

Something that I was thinking about is that I like HW and GAOG, even with their flaws and all. But I only like them because they're by Marilyn Manson. I think that if they were made by any other band, I wouldn't even care to hear them, because they're nothing special or original in sound. Nothing that I wouldn't have heard elsewhere, even within the band's own catalogue. I mean, Disposable Teens basically is a rehash of The Beautiful People ("MM's signature sound", as he likes to call it) and most songs on GAOG are the same sound we're used to hear from the likes of Marilyn Manson.

And if the first thing I heard from the band was Lest We Forget, damn what a repeating and dull band would I have discovered. LWF only shows one of the faces of MM. Pretty boring compilation, if you ask me.

[mandyko13]

i'm listening to ACS right now just to see if i can like it a little bit more. it's torture.

[Damian]

Originally posted by AnjoKabalistico
But I only like them because they're by Marilyn Manson. I think that if they were made by any other band, I wouldn't even care to hear them, because they're nothing special or original in sound.

I agree 100%. I feel the same with portrait. If I hadn't heard ACSS first, but instead heard poaaf, I don't think I would have bothered with him.

[TERROJA]

Originally posted by ihtia0

I've yet to encounter the "horrible songs" you speak of. Putting the CD the right side up into the player may assist in getting rid of them, wherever they are.

That was actually clever.

Anyway, to the thread starter, Minute of Decay is a great song and you're fucking retarded if you don't like it.

[profane]

Originally posted by TERROJA
That was actually clever.

Anyway, to the thread starter, Minute of Decay is a great song and you're fucking retarded if you don't like it.

True that.

[Charles Monroe]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
I really wonder why it's considered his all-time best by so many fans. It's good, yeah, but as much as I tried, no matter how many times I listened to it, I can't see how so many people consider it to be his best. How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring. There are a few others that suck too but I just can't think of them right now. Anyway, I'm not bashing the album, b/c I do think its good, but I just think "Mechanical Animals" and "Holy Wood" are way better; it's by far his most overrated album.


A lot of people love Minute of Decay and Kinderfeld. Also, most fans don't like the album only because of the songs, but also the story the whole cd is telling, the style and all that stuff around it..

[HaTeRaPeR]

He's not retarded for not liking a song, please people...Tastes are tastes.

[koolboee cdmo87]

I actually don't like the production on ACSS. Yeah, it's raw, but it's also dated. That's my one complaint about the record. A remastering would be nice. And then the one awesome thing about HW is that the production is so good.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Heretic
I REALLY feel like killing you right now. It may take someone weeks to years and maybe forever to get the deal of the trilogy that ACSS started. But to say Kinderfeld and especially Minute of Decay (!!) are terrible has no excuse. Please do some research and listen more carefully next time. Minute of Decay is possibly one of the few songs that can reach the emotions of hearing "Hurt" by NIN. I adore Manson for masterpieces like that but you probably adore him for mOBSCENE and New Shit.... Damn, I wish it was 1996.

I also wish that analysis site called "Songs of Golgotha" was still up.

Dude, it's just an opinion. I don't think its a bad album, I just don't particiulary like those songs. People act like its against the law to not think "Antichrist Superstar" is a perfect album. And about saying "you probably like him for mOBSCENE and The New Shit"...well I like them yeah, but my favorites comes from "Mechanical Animals", and I know that thats an album that most big Manson fans like too.

[TERROJA]

Originally posted by koolboee cdmo87
I actually don't like the production on ACSS. Yeah, it's raw, but it's also dated. That's my one complaint about the record. A remastering would be nice. And then the one awesome thing about HW is that the production is so good.

Lord forbid anything sound "dated."

Everything must be endlessly modernized for shorter attention spans and stupider minds.

[anti_girl]

I think that ACSS is a fantastic album, if not simply for the atmosphere it creates alone...apart from having well thought out, thought provoking lyrics and great songs it really absorbs the listener in the world that Manson is trying to create, the emotions he was feeling at the time and the mindspace he must have been in. Although a relatively new fan, it was the first album I listened to and the sheer honesty of it in this way drew me in..."Man that you fear", is really quite a beautiful song in the sense of fragility it conveys, for example. I definitely think it is underrated and that as someone said, it has to be seen as a whole rather than merited on individual songs.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by HaTeRaPeR
He's not retarded for not liking a song, please people...Tastes are tastes.

Thank you! It's just a fucking opinion, Christ, God forbid someone DOESN'T think the album is perfect! "Great Big White World" is my favorite song by him probably but that doesn't mean that if someone I know doesn't think its his best, they're an asshole. Hell, someone on here said they don't like it at all, but I'm not gonna say "You're retarded for not liking that song!" Who gives a fuck, it's just an opinion. And about the whole trilogy thing with ACS-MA-HW, yes I fucking know that, but that dosn't mean I have to like ACS as much as those two.

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Thank you! It's just a fucking opinion, Christ, God forbid someone DOESN'T think the album is perfect! "Great Big White World" is my favorite song by him probably but that doesn't mean that is someone I know doesn't think its his best, there an asshole. Hell, someone on there said they don't like it at all, but I'm not gonna say "You're retarded for not liking that song!" Who gives a fuck, it's just an opinion. And about the whole trilogy thing with ACS-MA-HW, yes I fucking know that, but that dosn't mean I have to like ACS as much as those two.
it's okay. it's just a pity that you are missing out on of the KEY parts of Marilyn Manson. ACSS is the biggest part of the trilogy....

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
it's okay. it's just a pity that you are missing out on of the KEY parts of Marilyn Manson. ACSS is the biggest part of the trilogy....

I like the album. I NEVER said it was bad. This must be my what, like 10th time saying this?

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring. There are a few others that suck too but I just can't think of them right now.

I stick by what I said. Those two tracks are some of the most important development tracks on ACSS. I'd understand if you hated Wormboy or something, but god damn. Your taste sucks.

[Ramirez 425]

this thread....makes me so....angry

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
I stick by what I said. Those two tracks are some of the most important development tracks on ACSS. I'd understand if you hated Wormboy or something, but god damn. Your taste sucks.

Oh yeah, you're right, your opinion about those 2 songs is FACT ... what an asshole I am for having an opinion...

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Oh yeah, you're right, your opinion about those 2 songs is FACT ... what an asshole I am for having an opinion...

Good. We agree on something.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
Good. We agree on something.

Hey, is your all-time favorite Manson song "Great Big White World"?

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Hey, is your all-time favorite Manson song "Great Big White World"?
Not all-time favorite, but defently one of his best both musically and lyrically.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
Not all-time favorite, but defently one of his best both musically and lyrically.

Man, you're an asshole for not having the EXACT same opinion as me.

[pyrox02]

Originally posted by Damian
I stick by what I said. Those two tracks are some of the most important development tracks on ACSS. I'd understand if you hated Wormboy or something, but god damn. Your taste sucks.

God dammit. Fuck you Wormboy haters.

[Damian]

Originally posted by pyrox02
God dammit. Fuck you Wormboy haters.
Whoa, you got me all wrong. I love Wormboy, but I'd understand if say, he didn't like that one compared to the rest of the album. It's the most "portait" sounding of the bunch, and seems kinda out of place. But as a song, it fucking rules.

[pyrox02]

Originally posted by Damian
Whoa, you got me all wrong. I love Wormboy, but I'd understand if say, he didn't like that one compared to the rest of the album. It's the most "portait" sounding of the bunch, and seems kinda out of place. But as a song, it fucking rules.

Right on. You're good in my book then.

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Man, you're an asshole for not having the EXACT same opinion as me.
*shrugs* I'm cool with that.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Alright dude I'm done with the whole argument thing. I don't see why you think your opinion is fact, but there's no point in having a fuckin internet fight.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Alright dude I'm done with the whole argument thing. I don't see why you think your opinion is fact, but there's no point in having a fuckin internet fight.

Alright dude I'm done with this ... you like those 2 songs, I don't really ... simple as that. So anyway whats your 2nd favorite Manson album?

[Damian]

You just confused the fuck out of me.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
You just confused the fuck out of me.

I'm saying, I wanna just stop the whole argument thing. When I started this thread I wasn't even trying to start a fight, just trying to see everyone else's opinion. Then I just started a new topic by asking "so whats your 2nd fav. Manson album?" I'm assuming ACS is your 1st favorite, is it?

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
I'm saying, I wanna just stop the whole argument thing. When I started this thread I wasn't even trying to start a fight, just trying to see everyone else's opinion. Then I just started a new topic by asking "so whats your 2nd fav. Manson album?" I'm assuming ACS is your 1st favorite, is it?

Well to avoid arguments, it's best to just say "I don't like these as much. What do you think" INSTEAD of "How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring."

You gotta remember, this is a hardcore Manson site. Some of us have been fans from the early days, and for most people, your favorite album is the one that got you into Manson.

My favorite album is Antichrist Superstar, followed by Mechanical Animals. Both albums have equally as good lyrics, and music is pretty equal in quality just on different levels. ACSS was about chaos and noise where as MA was about simplicity and layers.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
Well to avoid arguments, it's best to just say "I don't like these as much. What do you think" INSTEAD of "How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring."

You gotta remember, this is a hardcore Manson site. Some of us have been fans from the early days, and for most people, your favorite album is the one that got you into Manson.

My favorite album is Antichrist Superstar, followed by Mechanical Animals. Both albums have equally as good lyrics, and music is pretty equal in quality just on different levels. ACSS was about chaos and noise where as MA was about simplicity and layers.

Alright, cool, I like Mechanical Animals too. Yeah I probably could have worded the question a little differently to avoid arguments. I like Manson a lot too, he's definitely one of my favorite artists. I just don't think liking Holy Wood and MA more than ACS means you're not a big fan or anything. To be a fan you don't have to think EVERY album is a 10/10, at least I don't think so.

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
To be a fan you don't have to think EVERY album is a 10/10, at least I don't think so.

True. I personally HATE GAOG. And I've had my trash talking moments on it. Just gotta defend what you belive in, man. No hard feelings.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
True. I personally HATE GAOG. And I've had my trash talking moments on it. Just gotta defend what you belive in, man. No hard feelings.

Alright, we're good. And when I said "to be a fan you don't have to think every album's a 10/10", I wasn't really referring to you, since you never actually said that, but a lot of people think that for whatever reason. Would you consider Manson one of your favorite artists?

[koolboee cdmo87]

Originally posted by TERROJA
Lord forbid anything sound "dated."

Everything must be endlessly modernized for shorter attention spans and stupider minds.
No.

SLC is a year older than ACSS and has a slicker sound. Hell, Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here is decades older and still sounds slick. There's a difference between classic and dated. I wasn't a fan when ACSS came out, so I don't know how it would've sounded then... but as of buying it in '02, some songs sound too much like a demo and don't have as much of the punch that subsequent live versions do, even though I still think it's an awesome record.

Don't choke on your cynicism, even if you are smarter than everybody and all.

[mandyko13]

this thread is getting boring....

graveyard?

[Damian]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Alright, we're good. And when I said "to be a fan you don't have to think every album's a 10/10", I wasn't really referring to you, since you never actually said that, but a lot of people think that for whatever reason. Would you consider Manson one of your favorite artists?
He was my favorite from about 1997-2003. I place him probley fourth favorite.

Nine Inch Nails
Dillinger Escape Plan
Tool
Manson

[Damian]

Originally posted by koolboee cdmo87
No.

SLC is a year older than ACSS and has a slicker sound. Hell, Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here is decades older and still sounds slick. There's a difference between classic and dated. I wasn't a fan when ACSS came out, so I don't know how it would've sounded then... but as of buying it in '02, some songs sound too much like a demo and don't have as much of the punch that subsequent live versions do, even though I still think it's an awesome record.

Don't choke on your cynicism, even if you are smarter than everybody and all.

I actually agree with you. POAAF had better production in terms of mixing and mastering. Listen to Irresponsible Hate, it just sounds more fuzzy and weak. The remasters he put on LWF was good and I hope he does that with the whole album. It's not that it would be easier to digest, but the music is top-notch, so it deserves the treatment to sound top-notch.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by koolboee cdmo87
No.

SLC is a year older than ACSS and has a slicker sound. Hell, Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here is decades older and still sounds slick. There's a difference between classic and dated. I wasn't a fan when ACSS came out, so I don't know how it would've sounded then... but as of buying it in '02, some songs sound too much like a demo and don't have as much of the punch that subsequent live versions do, even though I still think it's an awesome record.

Don't choke on your cynicism, even if you are smarter than everybody and all.

I see what he's saying. Even great songs like "The Beautiful People" could of resulted from just having a louder sound. Luckily this is accomplished when its played live and it sounds even better than the studio version, as do most of the songs from ACS that I've seen live.

[Ramirez 425]

its about time this thread visits the graveyard

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
its about time this thread visits the graveyard

Yeah I agree, this thread's gettin pretty dumb. I tried to delete the whole thing but this site is stupid and says I "don't have permission" or some shit, even though I started it.

[Ramirez 425]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Yeah I agree, this thread's gettin pretty dumb. I tried to delete the whole thing but this site is stupid and says I "don't have permission" or some shit, even though I started it.

if this site is so stupid then maybe you should leave.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
if this site is so stupid then maybe you should leave.

Dude what the fuck is your problem?

[Ramirez 425]

simply a suggestion

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Ramirez 425
simply a suggestion

It's a cool site, but that one thing is just kinda stupid if you ask me. I mean I created the damn thread, I should be able to delete it. And if I can't for whatever reason, why should the option even be there? I just think its stupid.

[koolboee cdmo87]

Originally posted by Damian
I actually agree with you. POAAF had better production in terms of mixing and mastering.
Agreed. POAAF sounds very dated as well, but it's because of poor facilities. It still sounds pretty good for a debut album that didn't have much support from the record company. And it sounds like they did the best job they could do with what they had.
ACSS, on the other hand, just sounds like it was recorded badly. Considering the state they were in, it sounds a bit sloppy. I don't know if it's the recording too, but the mixing is definitely pretty bad. I agree with you, and the example you used is perfect. I LOVE the sound they tried creating with the guitars, sounding like they're sucked up in a vaccuum (e.g. the opening riffs to "Antichrist Superstar"), and the real rawness of it (e.g. the amp noise and stuff on "1996"), but it sounds exactly what you said - fuzzy. It sounds like a thick piece of felt is covering the speakers. It doesn't have a pristine sound like subsequent releases.
And I agree with you - ACSS has such great writing and playing, it deserves a great sound quality too.

I see what he's saying. Even great songs like "The Beautiful People" could of resulted from just having a louder sound. Luckily this is accomplished when its played live and it sounds even better than the studio version, as do most of the songs from ACS that I've seen live.
I don't think it's so much the loudness, the record just sounds like it's being dampened by something. That's why the live versions of (most of the) songs sound so much better - there's nothing restricting it.

[Ramirez 425]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
It's a cool site, but that one thing is just kinda stupid if you ask me. I mean I created the damn thread, I should be able to delete it. And if I can't for whatever reason, why should the option even be there? I just think its stupid. [/QUOTE

Im not sure the details with that.. I think its like if you make the thread then decide you dont want it to be there anymore like before anyone posts maybe you'd be able to delete it? but im not 100%.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

koolboee cdmo87, I do see what you mean, and I agree, the sound is much better on most of his other albums.

[tsimtsum]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Dude, I've said it like 5 times now ... I did NOT say Antichrist Superstar is a bad album. Overrated does NOT mean bad. "Antichrist Superstar" is good but it just gets a little bit too much praise if you ask me, making it OVERRATED, but not bad!

So for the record: I did NOT SAY ANTICHRIST SUPERSTAR SUCKS.


wow, someone is getting a little hurt. i know overrated doesnt mean bad. people are just making sound like it's a bad thing. i like how everyone says that acss is over rated but most of these post from people are about how they like holywood and mechanical animals. i think i would say that i like to listen to mechanical animals better, but antichrist superstar is an amazing album, very well thought out. there is so much story to it.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by tsimtsum
wow, someone is getting a little hurt.

Yeah well it's just annoying how everyone keeps saying "Oh my God you're retarded for thinking that, Antichrist Superstar is the greatest!", etc. etc.....

It's annoying how they're acting like its a fucking fact that ACS is his best album, and even more annoying that they keep saying "ACS DOES NOT SUCK!" when i never even said it sucked. Infact, the thread says "I'm not saying it sucks, b/c it is good, just that I think its kinda overrated.

Originally posted by tsimtsum
i like how everyone says that acss is over rated but most of these post from people are about how they like holywood and mechanical animals.

What is your point?

[tsimtsum]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Yeah well it's just annoying how everyone keeps saying "Oh my God you're retarded for thinking that, Antichrist Superstar is the greatest!", etc. etc.....

It's annoying how they're acting like its a fucking fact that ACS is his best album, and even more annoying that they keep saying "ACS DOES NOT SUCK!" when i never even said it sucked. Infact, the thread says "I'm not saying it sucks, b/c it is good, just that I think its kinda overrated.



What is your point?

i know what you mean. that's why i tend to not post on these kind of things.


not trying to make a point, i just think it's funny.

[Damian]

What I don't understand is:

People get mad because some of us act like it's fact that ACSS is his best album. But on the flipside, they act like it's fact that it's overrated. No matter what YOUR opinion is, you are going to come across that it's fact. It's just a matter of opinion and there's no point in crying about it.

Personally, I don't get all the hype about Holywood. I just listened to all three albums in story order (hw, ma, acss) and still, ACSS reigns supreme ;)

[tsimtsum]

Originally posted by Damian
What I don't understand is:

People get mad because some of us act like it's fact that ACSS is his best album. But on the flipside, they act like it's fact that it's overrated. No matter what YOUR opinion is, you are going to come across that it's fact. It's just a matter of opinion and there's no point in crying about it.

Personally, I don't get all the hype about Holywood. I just listened to all three albums in story order (hw, ma, acss) and still, ACSS reigns supreme ;)

i dont get the hype either. i like all three albums.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Damian
What I don't understand is:

People get mad because some of us act like it's fact that ACSS is his best album. But on the flipside, they act like it's fact that it's overrated. No matter what YOUR opinion is, you are going to come across that it's fact.

That's a good point actually, it's always gonna seem that you're stating your opinion as fact; it's just that some people are like "Oh my god you're fuckin retarded!" or "ACS IS HIS BEST, YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE FOR NOT THINKING SO!" or something like that. Not saying either of you did, but some people did. And I didn't do anything like that, I just said that I think it's overrated, not that whoever doesn't agree is an asshole.

[Homeostasis]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
I really wonder why it's considered his all-time best by so many fans. It's good, yeah, but as much as I tried, no matter how many times I listened to it, I can't see how so many people consider it to be his best. How the hell can anyone possibly think "Kinderfeld" and "Minute Of Decay" are good? There fucking terrible, just plain boring. There are a few others that suck too but I just can't think of them right now. Anyway, I'm not bashing the album, b/c I do think its good, but I just think "Mechanical Animals" and "Holy Wood" are way better; it's by far his most overrated album.

That's what I was saying just about 6 months ago. Antichrist Superstar is definately a grower. I still think it has some of his worst songs ever [Dried Up, Tourniquet, Wormboy, and to a lesser extent Deformography and Mister Superstar]. But the rest are FUCKING GREAT.

The only thing I dispise about ACSS is the production, mixing and mastering. During the peaks of 1996, The Reflecting God and Irresponsible Hate Anthem - there's no balance between the individual tracks [bass, vocals, drums, guitars, etc.]. They all sound like they merge into one big mess. I'll fucking hate Trent Reznor forever for that. Who the fuck did he think he was fooling. There's nothing wrong with the sound of any NIN album from 5 years before that point. Even the sound on Portrait and Smells Like Children is perfect for the most part. I'm beginning to think he purposely meant for ACSS to sound crappy - jealousy getting the better of him or something. After all... there's no way that dusch could write a song as good as 1996 or Antichrist Superstar.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by Homeostasis
That's what I was saying just about 6 months ago. Antichrist Superstar is definately a grower. I still think it has some of his worst songs ever [Dried Up, Tourniquet, Wormboy, and to a lesser extent Deformography and Mister Superstar]. But the rest are FUCKING GREAT.

The only thing I dispise about ACSS is the production, mixing and mastering. During the peaks of 1996, The Reflecting God and Irresponsible Hate Anthem - there's no balance between the individual tracks [bass, vocals, drums, guitars, etc.]. They all sound like they merge into one big mess. I'll fucking hate Trent Reznor forever for that. Who the fuck did he think he was fooling. There's nothing wrong with the sound of any NIN album from 5 years before that point. Even the sound on Portrait and Smells Like Children is perfect for the most part. I'm beginning to think he purposely meant for ACSS to sound crappy - jealousy getting the better of him or something. After all... there's no way that dusch could write a song as good as 1996 or Antichrist Superstar.

Well Homeostasis, I really apreciate the fact that you didn't jump down my throat like some other assholes just because, God forbid I DON'T think ACS is perfect. That's exactly the thing, it's not even bad, "The Beautiful People" along with some others are definitely some of his best, but there are definitely a good amount of crappy songs on there too. Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood are just better on the whole, and they have just as many classics as ACS, if not more. Plus, like you said, the production on ACS sucks ass. So many great songs are being held back from just not being loud enough and having pretty crappy production, even "The Beautiful People". It's one of his best like I said, but you really don't even get to experience just how great it is until you see it live, where it's about 1000 times better because nothing's holding it back. Though I highly doubt it'd ever happen, it'd be cool if Manson like re-released ACS with just way better production. What would you say is his best overall album?

[shannonwhalen]

I gotta say i had wayyyyyyy more fun times listening to Anti Christ Superstar and POAAF.. But the Music was played way better on POAAF,MA,HW...

[Homeostasis]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
Well Homeostasis, I really apreciate the fact that you didn't jump down my throat like some other assholes just because, God forbid I DON'T think ACS is perfect. That's exactly the thing, it's not even bad, "The Beautiful People" along with some others are definitely some of his best, but there are definitely a good amount of crappy songs on there too. Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood are just better on the whole, and they have just as many classics as ACS, if not more. Plus, like you said, the production on ACS sucks ass. So many great songs are being held back from just not being loud enough and having pretty crappy production, even "The Beautiful People". It's one of his best like I said, but you really don't even get to experience just how great it is until you see it live, where it's about 1000 times better because nothing's holding it back. Though I highly doubt it'd ever happen, it'd be cool if Manson like re-released ACS with just way better production. What would you say is his best overall album?

In a way, I agree with pretty much 100% of what you wrote there. The songs just never 'peak'. You seriously are much better off listening to the versions on The Last Tour On Earth. And, overall, I would say Holy Wood is his best album. When the mood strikes me, I can listen to every single track on that album - and, more importantly, like every track on that album.

Originally posted by BarryC
1996 is good? *Pushes Play* Nope it still sucks. And all of the songs you listed were awesome especially Tourniquet.

Listen... there's no point in a snot-nosed brat like you even listening to a song like 1996. After all, you do like "Worm *worst... song... eva* boy".
Maybe when you throw out your Teletubby CDs and begin to understand what real rock is, then maybe I will contemplate your opinion of 1996. Until then... shut up.

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

I really don't have an absolute favorite, sometimes I think maybe Mechanical Animals, then sometimes I think Holy Wood. I guess overall I'd say there like a tie for me, since I can never really decide on just one of them. The only song I don't really like all that much on "Holy Wood" is "The Fall Of Adam", but even that I can listen to, since there's nothing godawful about it or anything. My favorites from "Holy Wood" are "The Fight Song", "Disposable Teens", "The Love Song" and "The Death Song". What are yours?

[Homeostasis]

Originally posted by JOHNISTHEMAN208
The only song I don't really like all that much on "Holy Wood" is "The Fall Of Adam", but even that I can listen to, since there's nothing godawful about it or anything. My favorites from "Holy Wood" are "The Fight Song", "Disposable Teens", "The Love Song" and "The Death Song". What are yours?

My favourite songs on HolyWood are all the songs from 'In The Shadow' and 'Of Red Earth'. Every song on those 2 chapters rock. I can't shorten it down. Least favourite song is probably Coma Black or Valentine's Day.

[GDP]

How can you say that "Minute of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" are boring when MA has "Fundamentally Loathsome" and HW has songs like "In the Shadow of the Valley of Death," "Lamb of God," and "Burning Flag" on it?

That just blows my mind. Even if you like the songs on HW better, the pace of "In the Shadow of the Valley of Death" and "Lamb of God" are very similar to "Kinderfeld" and "Minute of Decay."

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by GDP
How can you say that "Minute of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" are boring when MA has "Fundamentally Loathsome" and HW has songs like "In the Shadow of the Valley of Death," "Lamb of God," and "Burning Flag" on it?

That just blows my mind. Even if you like the songs on HW better, the pace of "In the Shadow of the Valley of Death" and "Lamb of God" are very similar to "Kinderfeld" and "Minute of Decay."

Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to hear this. I listened to "Minute Of Decay" again this morning, and I realized it's actually not that bad. I don't know why but I just remembered it being boring and annoying for some reason, and so I just put that as one of the songs I hate. I still can't call it one of my favorites, but it's pretty decent. "Kinderfeld" I still don't really like, though I guess I wouldn't say I hate it.

You said "How can you say that "Minute of Decay" and "Kinderfeld" are boring when MA has "Fundamentally Loathsome" and HW has songs like "In the Shadow of the Valley of Death," "Lamb of God," and "Burning Flag" on it? Well "In The Shadow Of The Valley of Death", you're definitely right about that. It is rather slow and calm, but I just don't find it to be boring. A slow song CAN be boring(my opinion of Kinderfeld), but it doesn't necesarily HAVE to be, and in my opinion, "In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death" isn't. Plus about halfway into the song it gets heavy which makes it even better. "Lamb Of God" is pretty soft too, but the vocals aren't really low/whisper-like, like "Kinderfeld", or even "In The Shadow Of The Valley Of Death". In other words, the vocals on Lamb Of God aren't boring at all, there's no low singing or anything. "Burning Flag"? How the hell is that a slow song? Oh and "Fundementally Loathsome" from MA, yeah I admit that's kinda soft and I didn't even like it at first, but I do now. It's still not one of my favorites off the album, but it is good. I think that should answer your question.

[koolboee cdmo87]

I think the best part of of HW is Of Red Earth, by far. That's the section that ends with "A Place in the Dirt", right? Anyway, I think the songs on that section are more developed, like the previous albums. A couple tracks still need more to them (e.g. "President Dead"), but it's still a step up. I think that "Lamb of God" is also more developed, and "Godeatgod" is pretty good too although moreso because of its atmosphere. The rest are good until after you hear their riffs a million times... I can only listen to those every once in awhile. A few I just can't stand, like "The Death Song."

[JOHNISTHEMAN208]

Originally posted by koolboee cdmo87
A few I just can't stand, like "The Death Song."

Dude "The Death Song" is awesome.

[mandyko13]

I love The Death Song

[Hellhammer]

Antichrist superstar is a classic

[HaTeRaPeR]

I still don't understand why people are attacking each other when they are talking about the SAME artist whom they love. Obviously some people are going to enjoy more some things and others, other things. Jesus, it's like food. Everybody likes to eat but they prefer different dishes.

Ok, this is simplistic but it serves its purposes.

[Insect]

Antichrist Svperstar is a great album, his only album that I ever play all the through. It is so inspirational, the imagery and overall feeling of the album are excellant. Manson has certainly progressed greatly since ACSS, but it holds a special place in my heart.

[BarryC]

Originally posted by Homeostasis
In a way, I agree with pretty much 100% of what you wrote there. The songs just never 'peak'. You seriously are much better off listening to the versions on The Last Tour On Earth. And, overall, I would say Holy Wood is his best album. When the mood strikes me, I can listen to every single track on that album - and, more importantly, like every track on that album.



Listen... there's no point in a snot-nosed brat like you even listening to a song like 1996. After all, you do like "Worm *worst... song... eva* boy".
Maybe when you throw out your Teletubby CDs and begin to understand what real rock is, then maybe I will contemplate your opinion of 1996. Until then... shut up.

Real rock? You do realize 1996 is a metal track.

[maugan_ra_3rd]

I think every track on ACSS are great, including the two you mentioned - I didn't always like them, they just grew on me.

[monkeyslappr]

Originally posted by BarryC
Real rock? You do realize 1996 is a metal track.

Metal is a subcategory of rock

["Afliction"]

I think that ACSS is the hardest album, but Holy Wood somehow combines the hardness of ACSS and the melody Mech Animals.

To author: Minut of Decay rocks! Although it reminds me of swing. And it also reminds me of the PAF* era - just a little.
I think that is Kinderfeld is by hell the most twisted song of all. Not as classical as ACSS(song) but definately needful for finishing the image of ACSS(album). In it MM actually says "...smell(s) like children..."




*PAF - portrait of an American Family